CRC#5: Aussies Destroy the Patriarchy

It’s been just over a month since our last Common Room Conversation, but we’re back! So far we’ve talked on the subjects of fictional weaponry, being gay and toppling empires, writing books where shit hits the fan, and the fantasy of manners subgenre. This time around… it’s time to destroy the patriarchy. Specifically, destroying the patriarchy while Australian.

For those who haven’t checked out our previous CRC episodes, the idea is that we invite a number of authors into a chatroom all at once, have a topic in mind, and then just… talk! See where the conversation takes us, rather than be beholden to any set questions. The goal is for this to be a much more casual and relaxed interview format. Basically like a textual, SFF-focused chat show.

As always, we have an AMAZING line-up for you today. We have Devin Madson (author of the Reborn Empire quartet), E.J. Beaton (The Councillor), Maiya Ibrahim (The Spice Road trilogy, forthcoming), and Sam Hawke (The Poison Wars trilogy). All of our guests have written awesome books that on some level engage with the structures of patriarchal societies. Whether that involves tearing them down through war, or presenting a different, more gender-neutral society.

I’ll give you folks a little more information about those books at the end of this post, but for now… Here’s what our guests had to say!

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Hiu
Okay if everyone’s here we can get started! Honestly we’ll keep it just as casual as we’ve been above, nobody likes a stuffy interview.

(Editor’s Note: “above” featured an in-depth discussion of the global pop-culture impact of Dexter’s Laboratory. Specifically as relates to omelettes.)

Sam Hawke
Maybe they do.
You don’t know.
Herein, therefore, the abovementioned.

Devin Madson
Oh no turn off her lawyer mode!!

E.J. Beaton
I love a stuffy interview.

Sam Hawke
Sorry, I’ve been writing advice for writing training and putting on a snooty voice to make fun of bad paragraphs.

Hiu
I dread the day that someone is all “urgh this CHAT could have been a google doc”.

Maiya Ibrahim
😆
Wow that emoji is big, sorry.

Devin Madson
Discord has a size issue.

Sam Hawke
Oh it’s so weird when they unexpectedly come out giant.

Hiu
Me, wondering if “size issue” is enough of a segue to start talking patriarchy.

Devin Madson
I mean.
Compensation…

Sam Hawke
Clearly my brain isn’t dirty enough because I was immediately thinking yes, yes, the patriarchy is a huge issue indeed yes.

E.J. Beaton
Yes, an issue with the size of the patriarchy. I know that’s what you mean. Right?

Devin Madson
Ok, ok so I’ll be the dirty one.
I know my role.

Sam Hawke
We have Dirty Smurf, Snooty Smurf, who else we got?

Hiu
Honestly I know that’s a joke but there’s a good point there. If you squint. I mean… fantasy had a HUGE issue with uber-patriarchal books for the longest time, right?
Like a large part of the readership wouldn’t even question it.

Sam Hawke
It definitely did.
Because “realism”.

Devin Madson
It’s funny because like, yes, but it’s not just “hey let’s indoctrinate people into the patriarchy deliberately”, it’s just writing what you know. What you experience because you know no different.
When there’s no representation of anything else.

E.J. Beaton
Not even just fantasy, but all of literature. It’s interesting how some of that sneaks into your psyche even when you’re actively trying to create something different. You have to review your worldbuilding and look for the tropes or things that have snuck in.

Devin Madson
Oh yes this, always!
The amount of times a world or a character is trying to be feminist or anti-patriarchal and ends up accidentally revelling in a trope that undoes all the work.

Sam Hawke
The patriarchy affects us all (infects us all?) even when we’re doing our best.

Devin Madson
One of those, lifetimes of having to constantly unpack and decode your own social training.

E.J. Beaton
I’d be interested to hear what tropes have snuck into your writing from older series or older lit in general. I found it was an issue with background characters and side characters, especially, at first. My first draft of The Councillor had an all-male council. And then there are things like: who’s in a crowd, who’s watching the carriage pass by… what gender are sex workers… what gender are soldiers…

Devin Madson
Ha! The first book I ever wrote had a male MC stopping at like every inn while travelling and bedding a very interested in him woman.
It just felt like. That’s what you wrote? So I did?

E.J. Beaton
You could do a gender-flipped spin off, now. She stopped at every inn…

Devin Madson
And funnily I’d be here for that.

Sam Hawke
Yes you get these kind of standard mental images from media – not just books, but on screen too – of what a crowd looks like, and what people who serve drinks look like, and so on, and boy is that male dominated if you don’t actively work against it

Devin Madson
And when you do, as soon as you have like 30% women people complain it’s ALL WOMEN EVERYWHERE DROWNING IN WOMEN

Hiu
That’s a really interesting point. There’s obviously different ways of writing a patriarchal critique — making a gender neutral society, or just having a character live in / fight against a patriarchal society. Do you think those small decisions like those EJ just mentioned play a role into contextualising the kind of critique you’re trying to write?

Sam Hawke
They’re very different kinds of stories, aren’t they, Hiu? Replicating the patriarchy in some form but having your characters directly fight against it is a very different structure to just imagining a world where it doesn’t exist
Both are effectively criticisms but their nature is very different. One is about visualising resistance, I think, while the other is about imagining where we could be without it

E.J. Beaton
So well put, Sam!
It’s a great point, Hiu, about how different kinds of worlds offer different feminist stories. You can have characters fighting the patriarchy (perhaps literally, perhaps in sneaky ways) in a patriarchal world. And there’s a kind of catharsis in that, in how it maps onto real-world experiences. But you can also have a gender-equal society, or a matriarchy, where the characters aren’t fighting the patriarchy but interacting with those patriarchal rules and expectations gone. Illumination through contrast with our real world.

Devin Madson
Mine is absolutely replicating it and fighting it because that’s where my anger at the world I live in takes me. I want to burn it down not just pretend it isn’t there for a while (not that I don’t love books where it doesn’t exist!).

E.J. Beaton
I liked something that Rowenna Miller raised on the Worldbuilding for Masochists podcast recently, too – a further idea about how you could have a world with gender division, but women’s work is valued equally or even better.
The idea of valuation.

Sam Hawke
Great point EJ – I actually think that might be the kind of story we see the least of, and I’d like to see it more.

Maiya Ibrahim
Yes, I think they are very different ways of critiquing patriarchy. Fighting colonialism is a big aspect of Spice Road, so I went for a gender neutral society in the protagonist’s home, because I wanted to both make a point (there are lady warriors, rulers, scholars, etc, and no one bats an eye) but not have it be THE point. I think in that sense, it’s about normalizing that kind of world for a reader.

E.J. Beaton
I loved how you did that, Maiya. It was seamless.

Sam Hawke
Yes, Maiya! Showing that this kind of experience could just be a totally cool and normal part of society, and doesn’t actually have to be a big sticking point.

Hiu
Yeah that’s an excellent point, Maiya!

Devin Madson
That’s a good point because we really need both in our media consumption. We need to see it’s possible to fight. And feel empowered to do it. But we also have to be able to visualise what we’re fighting for.

E.J. Beaton
And that variety of female figures… I don’t want to spoil anything here, but, linked to magic. Scholar and warrior in the same group. It’s not just the fighter who’s significant in that world, it’s also the thinker.

Devin Madson
Sad how it’s actually out of the ordinary, especially in fantasy, to value on a different scale to a standard patriarchal scale of yay warriors, boo everyone else.

Sam Hawke
Which again ties into what we value and what we don’t – why things that are coded as hyper masculine have been celebrated and those regarded as feminine denigrated.

Devin Madson
And how we got to the “Strong Female Character” trope.

Maiya Ibrahim
Yeah, Devin, I think in stories where characters fight a kind of injustice or evil, we don’t often see the world that is created afterwards, when the battle is won. It’s nice to see that new world in action too.

Sam Hawke
I love stories that think about the what happens after!

E.J. Beaton
Oh yes! The strong female character trope is built on the idea that women are not, by default strong. If we don’t specify “strong male characters”, we don’t need to specify “strong female characters”. And on top of that, it’s so frequently used to describe women who fight, the kick butt character, yet there are other kinds of strength: intellectual capability, emotional resilience, persistence, strength through kindness and compassion.

Sam Hawke
Yah, and that goes to what you were saying about how feminist works can sometimes be accidentally anti-feminist, because if your immediate reaction to stifling gender roles is to be all, like, sewing is STUPID and girls are STUPID and I want to be a KNIGHT then you’re not just saying hey cool girls can be knights, you’re saying hey girl stuff is dumb, only boy stuff is cool.

Devin Madson
I guess the story often is the fight. And so in the way of western story telling they tend to end too soon. In the same way that stories of redemption often end before actual meaningful change and redemption is achieved.
It would be wonderful to read more books that really went hard on both, but given the amount of time change usually takes the structuring would not be easy.
“I Am Not Like Other Girls” is not feminism.

Sam Hawke
I am a reformed Not Like Other Girler so I feel this very deeply.
I was like… Arya Stark in modern Australia, skulking around aggressively disliking women for liking shoes and makeup when all I wanted to do was hit things in a variety of ways and never brush my hair.

Devin Madson
Ha! Yes and I think it’s important that we acknowledge all the places we know we’ve fallen down because lots of people don’t want to try because they might fail at things so I am also a reformed Not Like Other Girler because I played VIDEO GAMES and couldn’t do make up.
Hairbrushing is overrated.

E.J. Beaton
Arya Stark was the example that immediately came to my mind, Sam! It was interesting to see the hatred that Sansa copped in comparison to Arya.

Devin Madson
Because it’s acceptable to try to be stabby and more masculine, but gods forbid you ever become “bitchy”.
The acceptable roles for female characters (and women generally!) are very narrow.

Hiu
I guess there are some aspects there that must be really difficult to write, too. If you have characters suffering from internalised misogyny or toxic masculinity — both of which the patriarchy peddles — it must be hard to portray that in the initial stages (before the character grows) without seeming like you’re buying into it?

Sam Hawke
Totally, Hiu. Because there are plenty of readers out there who will nope out at an early stage and you don’t have time to show them that things are going to change.

E.J. Beaton
Sansa’s initial naivety about the world of power seemed to be a part of it, too. I think sometimes there’s an expectation that women know everything, or never make mistakes, in order to qualify as intelligent. But I like characters who grow… and characters who are messy people.

Devin Madson
And in her case endure awful, awful things and are able to come through them.

Sam Hawke
EJ you wrote about a character who kind of discovers her own ambition for power gradually through the book – have you had any backlash about that?
I’m remembering another Aussie author – Thoraiya Dyer – wrote a book with a main character who was determined to pull herself out of poverty and basically wanted to force herself into being the prophesied chosen one through strength of will.

Maiya Ibrahim
For me, that kind of ties into the idea (and associated dangers) of creating ‘unlikable female characters’. It feels so much harder to get away with a female protagonist who does not start the story perfectly nice, kind, whatever other qualities we associate with women and girls. Readers seem more forgiving to unlikable male characters though.

Sam Hawke
And she was lambasted for her ‘unlikeable’ character.
Which, yeah, like Maiya says, isn’t apparently as forgivable in a woman.

Devin Madson
The double standard of being “assertive” vs “bossy”.
No one ever calls a man bossy. 🙃

E.J. Beaton
I haven’t had much backlash about Lysande’s ambition from readers, Sam, which has been lovely! Early on in the process of developing the novel, I did receive some advice to make her less ambitious – and also more guilty… particularly, to have her cry in a scene where it’s noted that she doesn’t cry. I held on firmly to the story I wanted to tell. But it’s revealing that that advice was given with good intentions, with an eye to making her (supposedly!) more sympathetic.

Sam Hawke
I LOVED that she didn’t cry in that scene!
I’m glad to hear it. Maybe readers are getting better at accepting a wider range of traits in their fictional women?

Devin Madson
It’s… actually kind of depressing to think that in writing stories that fight tropes you can just get… Louder and louder toxic backlash.

Hiu
I guess that shows how far this kind of thing goes? There are these pre-defined roles that you are expected to have your characters fill. Pre-defined stories you are expected to tell. And it’s so internalised.

E.J. Beaton
I wonder if this varies per genre, Sam. Perhaps ambitious women are getting a good reception in epic fantasy, but on the other hand, it does seem that there’s less sympathy for the Sansas of the world who start out softer and naive.
That recalls the lovely variety of personality between the two main female characters in Maiya’s SPICE ROAD!

Maiya Ibrahim
Haha oh nooo, I dread discussing my book!

E.J. Beaton
Well, I’ll take the liberty of saying that Maiya’s characters exhibit different kinds of strength, and I loved them equally for it.

Sam Hawke
I can’t wait to read Spice Road!

Maiya Ibrahim
But I agree, I think there is less space for Sansas to grow and have their full arcs. Readers seem a bit more impatient with them.

Devin Madson
We are definitely very quick to pigeonhole female characters into little boxes and get annoyed when they stray from their predetermined roles.

Maiya Ibrahim
Or to expect ‘serious’ female characters not to have any romance in their stories. Not sure if anyone else has noticed that.

Devin Madson
Oh yes, and not just serious female characters but serious BOOKS!

E.J. Beaton
Elizabeth May had a great thread on Twitter recently about how romance has been sort of policed out of adult fantasy and into YA, and it was certainly ringing bells.

Devin Madson
Totally degraded by having romance in them.

Hiu
That’s a very good point, Maiya. I remember a conversation with a friend not so long ago when a certain Brandom Sanderson character was revealed as asexual. And as wonderful as representation is… there was also this sense that… said character kind of fits that “serious” stereotype.
lol “Brandom”

Maiya Ibrahim
There is still plenty of sex in adult fantasy though. 🙃

E.J. Beaton
It’s not only romance, though… it’s also lustful thoughts, consensual sex, and that whole area that is sometimes seen as less “belonging” in adult fantasy. That raises some concerns for me. If the only sexual scenes that garner approval are rape scenes, what does that say?

Maiya Ibrahim
I should clarify, EJ, because you’re right. The sex in adult fantasy is very geared to the male gaze.

Devin Madson
Or scenes like my embarrassingly aforementioned male MC getting his rocks off at every tavern on a journey.

E.J. Beaton
Certainly, if the book has a lot of detailed sex scenes, I can see the merit in calling it romance, so that the right readers find it. But some sexual interest doesn’t seem, to me, enough to qualify pushing it out of adult fantasy.
Shall we start a Kickstarter for the gender-flipped version, Dev?

Devin Madson
Let’s do it! 😂

Maiya Ibrahim
Take my money!

E.J. Beaton
It’s probably also worth raising that feminism can be a part of sexual dynamics. And in a gender-equal world or a matriarchal world, what is accepted and normalised may look different to a world where women’s desires are weaponised and policed.

Sam Hawke
I’m trying to remember how fandom greeted the Queen in the Witcher tv show.
Who was very much in that style.
I assume she had ravaged people at taverns.

Devin Madson
I absolutely agree though that as soon as a female character has any romantic/lustful/consensual feelings or thoughts it’s immediately perceived as lesser in value and more likely YA.
This is actually something one of my MCs in The Reborn Empire deals with increasingly, the idea that to be a serious contender for the throne she has to not love or be interested in sex.
And her realisation that actually her male predecessor was so obsessed by love that he ruined his empire over his wife loving someone else MORE, and was never called a whore for sleeping around, was a huge moment in writing for me.

Maiya Ibrahim
And that is beside the issue of YA being considered lesser in value as a category of fiction, because of this perception that its main audience is girls and women.

Sam Hawke
Despite girls and women being the biggest readers and thus what you’d think is like the ideal audience.
It’s worth noting that it’s not just male readers driving these trends. Internalised sexism is a real thing

Devin Madson
Huge thing! I have to stop myself thinking this EVERY DAY!

E.J. Beaton
Absolutely!

Devin Madson
Deprogramming myself is a constant and exhausting battle.
As I thank my (male) partner for being so very kind as to make me dinner. 🙄

Sam Hawke
It’s easy to point fingers and laugh at the clueless dudes reading our books and saying ‘but where are all the MEN, it’s unrealistic, blah blah’ but having written a main female character whose strengths are things like ’empathy’ and ‘being overlooked’ and who couldn’t even lift a sword, probably, a couple of the nastiest reactions came from women.

E.J. Beaton
Kalina is such a great character – she’s so skilful and talented in a way that isn’t always recognised.

Hiu
I, uh, do remember a couple iffy reactions to Kalina’s chronic fatigue, now you say that, Sam.

Sam Hawke
I (stupidly) watched a youtube thing of a readers group doing my book early in my career and I have this vivid memory of one of the readers saying ‘ugh his sister is just like… a useless bitch who can’t do anything’ and I slowly turned off the video and didn’t venture into youtube again. 😂
But I was actually super worried that people would not like her because she wasn’t a Strong Female Character in the way that is popular – she wouldn’t get cast in a joss whedon show for sure – but largely speaking readers have been incredibly positive so I think these kinds of characters do resonate.

Hiu
Taking all these points as a whole, I guess this is where the books you guys have written come in. EJ already mentioned an example above with the not-crying scene, but how have you guys looked to challenge these patriarchal assumptions (or offer up alternatives) in your books?

Devin Madson
In my Reborn Empire series I use the juxtaposition of having a gender neutral culture stepping into a highly patriarchal world, along with a female MC directly fighting to be allowed to be the first empress to rule in her own right, constantly coming up against her own internalised misogyny and assumptions that the forceful masculine way of doing things is best. There is a lot of me and my every day battles with internalised misogyny in her, and a lot of my wishful ideals for a gender neutral society in the Levanti.

Sam Hawke
I love that about your books Dev – that we get a bit of both types of stories we talked about earlier!

E.J. Beaton
I have a main female character who is a scholar, which I suppose isn’t that common a choice in epic fantasy. She can defend herself all right with a bit of training, but she’s not the best fighter or someone who primarily relies on fighting skills. I also wanted to show that she makes mistakes and that she has a very fraught emotional life. Just allowing female characters to be fully human – not perfect archetypes or stereotypes – is important, and I really look for that in the books I read.

Devin Madson
Ultimately I’m just happy it allowed me to write a really awkward sex conversation between one person who just thought sex talk was normal and one utterly horrified human.
“You can’t just.. SAY that”

E.J. Beaton
Ha! I love that, Dev! Sex is a part of life for a lot of people, after all. It’s good to allow women to talk about it, as well as men.

Devin Madson
Yes! I enjoyed playing the idea of sex positive normalisation against super prudish ye old patriarchy.

Sam Hawke
For me the biggest thing I did in my worldbuilding to mess up the patriarchy was to eliminate marriage as a thing
There are all kinds of dominoes that topple once you do that.

Devin Madson
Yes! And you also played a lot with the ideas of sex positivity and consent and how important they were to a good standing in the community.

E.J. Beaton
That must be so much fun, that tension of playing against the patriarchy! I’ve been using a setting where there aren’t any sexist ideas about what women can/should like sexually, which is another kind of story.

Devin Madson
Magic!

Sam Hawke
Once you remove marriage as a concept, it totally changes how people think about sex and romance and so on – there’s nothing to be gained from the idea of ‘purity’ because that’s really about treating women as property with a particular value – and short of advanced science the only obvious parent of a child in a society without fixed romantic relationships is the one who gave birth to it, so that changes how lineage works.

Hiu
Talking about changing those kind of societal aspects such as sex positivity, marriage, etc. When you guys were looking into building your gender-neutral societies and examining how that would work, did you find that certain societal structures were intrinsically linked to patriarchy? I believe we’ve had a guest on a previous episode mention that patriarchy is essentially the fertile ground from which power structures like imperialism can grow.

E.J. Beaton
I would love to hear Maiya’s thoughts on this, having read her book!

Hiu
the floor is yours, Maiya, if you want it! 😄

Maiya Ibrahim
Haha, I’ll try my best! Linking back to your previous question, I decided to go with a patriarchal society for the colonizers in Spice Road. I wanted to draw some real life parallels, and frankly, as that previous guest mentioned, many oppressive power structures we recognize like imperialism, colonialism, have historically existed in male-led societies. There is a king, there is a sense of ‘ownership’ over land and resources that typically isn’t associated with the matriarchy.
I hope I’m making sense 😫

Devin Madson
Perfect sense!

Hiu
That makes all the sense!

Sam Hawke
Definitely!

Maiya Ibrahim
Okay good, haha! So while I wanted to keep things gender neutral across the board, it also felt kind of incongruent to do that alongside something like colonization and resource wars.

E.J. Beaton
It’s so interesting to hear that! I got that sense from the book, too.

Sam Hawke
When you’re encouraged to think about some people as being equated to possessions for your use and pleasure it’s very easy to extend that more broadly.

Maiya Ibrahim
Yes, this!

Devin Madson
Yes! Which is why patriarchy is inextricably linked not only to sexism but racism and like. Every other kind of ism because it enforces a social hierarchy.

E.J. Beaton
I was playing a bit with history and historical literature I’d read from past societies that were patriarchal, in mine, and changing the gendered elements that were the basis for the social structure. But along with that, there’s also a bit of critique of monarchy, financial inequality, and discrimination that arises out of past war.

Devin Madson
There’s a wonderful book called White Tears Brown Scars by Ruby Hamad that talks a lot about how ultimately white feminism is a tool of white patriarchy and how it’s all interlinked, highly recommend for anyone who hasn’t read it!

E.J. Beaton
I suppose on that note – it’s so important that feminism remains intersectional in terms of the novels that are promoted, too. If it’s feminism with only white voices being pushed, it’s white feminism alone. It’s been heartening to see N K Jemisin’s work succeed, but we need more and more recognition for BIPOC authors. It’s not enough to read diverse characters, we need to read diverse writers too.

Hiu
That actually ties into the fun question I was gonna ask to wrap things up. Book recs! With all of our above conversation in mind, what books would you rec that cover this or adjacent topics?

E.J. Beaton
Oh, Hiu, you’re inviting us to be here all night! So many recs…

Devin Madson
🍿

Sam Hawke
Aside from everyone here’s books, Shelley Parker Chan’s She Who Became the Sun is a great example of examination of masculinity norms!

Maiya Ibrahim
I am SO excited to read this!!!!!

E.J. Beaton
Jemisin’s Broken Earth trilogy is just so wonderful.

Sam Hawke
Yes, SO good.

E.J. Beaton
Seconding Shelley’s She Who Became the Sun, too! It’s beautiful and complex.

Hiu
Everyone keeps yelling about Shelley’s book, and it makes me very jealous as someone who didn’t get the ARC! 😂

(Editor’s Note: Feel jealous no longer, because it’s OUT NOW!)

Sam Hawke
For fighting the patriarchy, I loved Alix Harrow’s Once and Future Witches, which ties the suffragette movement to witchcraft and reclaiming women’s literal power.

E.J. Beaton
Nnedi Okorafor’s work is really interesting and varied.
If you want to read some problematic and messy female characters who aren’t “likeable”, there’s also Otessa Moshfegh’s “My Year of Rest and Relaxation“. And the wonderful “Circe” by Madeline Miller.

Devin Madson
Also on messy female characters that don’t fit expected tropes and are so powerful because of it, Tasha Suri’s upcoming Jasmine Throne!

(Editor’s Note: Which is also OUT NOW!)

Sam Hawke
Oh and Tasha Suri’s Jasmine Throne has this amazing trio of women operating in a deeply unequal society on many levels, and it’s a superb example of a lot of the things we’ve been talking about in terms of female ambition and likeability and working within unfair systems.
Haha jinx, Dev!

Devin Madson
It’s just so good it needs recommending twice!

E.J. Beaton
YES! Tasha’s “The Jasmine Throne” has multiple female characters with different kinds of strength! So good!

Maiya Ibrahim
Another one on my “please give me this book now” list!

E.J. Beaton
Oh, it’s so good!
I’m veering out of fantasy, but I also strongly recommend “A Lonely Girl is a Dangerous Thing” by Australian author Jessie Tu, in terms of defying gender and racial stereotypes. It’s about a former child prodigy pianist who becomes a sex addict and is navigating relationships, sex, and her own identity.

Devin Madson
That sounds. Amazing.
Brb ordering now.

E.J. Beaton
I’m reading “Milk Fed” by Melissa Broder right now, which looks like it’s going to be similarly complex – a critique of diet culture and a story of queer sexuality at once.

Devin Madson
drools over books

Sam Hawke
I haven’t read enough this last year or so and I’m really feeling it!

E.J. Beaton
If you want some feminist poetry that punches you in the face, Sarah Stewart’s “Glisk” is an incredible book. And Natalie Diaz’s “Postcolonial Love Poem” deserves all the praise it’s getting. It’s such a rich work, at the intersection of indigenous identity and queer love and ecopoetics.

Hiu
Too many books, so little time. 😔

Devin Madson
Hiu asks for book recs and it’s just me sitting here making notes.

E.J. Beaton
Haha!

Maiya Ibrahim
EJ, you are a gold mine haha *also takes notes*

E.J. Beaton
I can’t stop reading. Bit of a problem! Did anyone else have any other recs? Any ARCs on the horizon?

Hiu
Well I guess I know four authors I think people should check out…

Devin Madson
Is one Brandom Sanderson?

E.J. Beaton
Is anyone a real author until they’ve had the Hiu treatment on their book cover, though?

Maiya Ibrahim
Hahaha

Hiu
Dammit Dev.
And you’re asking for trouble here, EJ! 😂

Devin Madson
Pretty sure Hiu replaced a character face with like… Fabio on one of my covers so YAY I’m a real boy

Hiu
Well I think we’ll call it there, don’t want to keep you guys up too late. Thanks so much to all of you! This has been so interesting and so much fun!

Sara:
The Wolf and The Woodsman by Ava Reid is also one to keep an eye on!
Patriarchy through religious fanaticism.
(Sorry, just dropping it here and lurking back)

Devin Madson
I am so so looking forward to that one!

Hiu
Oh yeah there’s an epic sax guy we ride the storm cover out there somewhere!

Hiu
Found it!

E.J. Beaton
Thank you so much for having me! This conversation raised so many good lines of thought. And great to be in company with these three amazing women.
Oh my goodness… that cover… it’s a thing of beauty!

Devin Madson
Omg I forgot that one!!!! 😂😂😂
Thank you so much for hosting our ranting!

Hiu
Thank you guys again!

Maiya Ibrahim
Thank you for hosting us!

Sam Hawke
Thanks everyone!

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There you have it! If you’re interested in reading some books that engage with the idea of Patriarchy and how to Fuck It Up, or stories set in gender-neutral societies, then these books (along with those recommended in the interview) might be a good place to start! Let’s have a look at them…

(I know! An amazing debut author interview before the cover has even been revealed!)

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We Cry for Blood by Devin Madson (Book 3 of the Reborn Empire)

Ambition and schemes have left the Kisian Empire in ashes. Empress Miko Ts’ai will have to move fast if she hopes to secure a foothold in its ruins. However, the line between enemies and allies may not be as clear-cut as it first appeared.

After failing to win back his Swords, former Captain Rah e’Torin finds shelter among the Levanti deserters. But his presence in the camp threatens to fracture the group, putting him on a collision course with their enigmatic leader.

Assassin Cassandra Marius knows Leo Villius’s secret—one that could thwart his ambitions to conquer Kisia. But her time in Empress Hana’s body is running out and each attempt they make to exploit Leo’s weakness may be playing into his plans.

And, as Leo’s control over the Levanti emperor grows, Dishiva e’Jaroven is caught in his web. To successfully challenge him, she’ll have to decide how many of her people are worth sacrificing in order to win.

We Cry for Blood releases on August 5th! Add it on Goodreads, or pre-order it now from Bookshop.org, Amazon US / UK, or other retailers.

If you haven’t read any of the Reborn Empire yet, why not check out We Ride the Storm?

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The Councillor by E.J. Beaton

When the death of Iron Queen Sarelin Brey fractures the realm of Elira, Lysande Prior, the palace scholar and the queen’s closest friend, is appointed Councillor. Publically, Lysande must choose the next monarch from amongst the city-rulers vying for the throne. Privately, she seeks to discover which ruler murdered the queen, suspecting the use of magic.

Resourceful, analytical, and quiet, Lysande appears to embody the motto she was raised with: everything in its place. Yet while she hides her drug addiction from her new associates, she cannot hide her growing interest in power. She becomes locked in a game of strategy with the city-rulers – especially the erudite prince Luca Fontaine, who seems to shift between ally and rival.

Further from home, an old enemy is stirring: the magic-wielding White Queen is on the move again, and her alliance with a traitor among the royal milieu poses a danger not just to the peace of the realm, but to the survival of everything that Lysande cares about.

In a world where the low-born keep their heads down, Lysande must learn to fight an enemy who wears many guises… even as she wages her own battle between ambition and restraint.

The Councillor is available now! Add it on Goodreads, or buy it now from Bookshop.org, Amazon US / UK, or other retailers.

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Spice Road by Maiya Ibrahim

Maiya Ibrahim’s debut YA trilogy, Spice Road, is a fantasy set in an Arabian-inspired land where a nation of tribes famous for their spices are attacked by an occupying king after he discovers their secret tea magic. The first book follows a teen girl who must guard the key to the source of her nation’s magic, and the orphan-turned-assassin whose future depends on him taking it from her.

Spice Road has only recently been acquired and is not yet available for pre-order. Keep your eyes peeled for this book, and add it on Goodreads!

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City of Lies by Sam Hawke

I was seven years old the first time my uncle poisoned me…

Outwardly, Jovan is the lifelong friend of the Chancellor’s charming, irresponsible Heir. Quiet. Forgettable. In secret, he’s a master of poisons and chemicals, trained to protect the Chancellor’s family from treachery. When the Chancellor succumbs to an unknown poison and an army lays siege to the city, Jovan and his sister Kalina must protect the Heir and save their city-state.

But treachery lurks in every corner, and the ancient spirits of the land are rising…and angry.

The Poison Wars duology is available now! Add City of Lies on Goodreads, or buy it now from Bookshop.org, Amazon US / UK, or other retailers.

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For more author interviews, check out our podcast, or check out previous episodes of Common Room Conversations below:

Episode Number	Guests	Topic
1	John Gwynne & Miles Cameron	Weapons in Fiction
2	C.L. Clark, Tasha Suri, and Shelley Parker-Chan	Sapphics Rise, Empires Fall
3	Gareth Hanrahan, Jackson Ford, RJ Barker	Sh*t Hits the Fan
4	C.L. Polk, Freya Marske, Olivia Atwater	Fantasy of Manners