Travis interviews fantasy author RJ Barker about his new book, The Bone Ships. They talk about writing characters with disabilities, what it’s like to read in a genre you write in, and how glorious hair can get you free drinks.
Watch RJ share his extensive knowledge of ships, bone or otherwise.
You can also check out our previous interview with RJ Barker, or try one of Wol’s custom cocktails!
Read RJ Barker’s Books:
- Age of Assassins (Book 1 of the Wounded Kingdom trilogy)
- The Bone Ships (Book 1 of The Tide Child trilogy)
RJ Barker Interview Transcript:
[intro music fades in]Travis: Hey everyone, and welcome to The Fantasy Inn, where we share our love for all things fantasy and discuss the broader speculative fiction industry. I’m your host, Travis Tippens.
This week, I had the pleasure of speaking with author RJ Barker. We talked about writing on steroids, how glorious hair can get you free drinks, and what it’s like to build a fantasy world from the ground up. After finishing his epic fantasy trilogy about a crippled assassin who solves mysteries, the first book in RJ Barker’s new trilogy launched just last month.
The Bone Ships follows a crew of condemned women and men as they chase a sea monster with their ship built from the bones of the dead dragon. It’s a story full of found family, grand sea battles, and a deconstruction of the things we take for granted in society. RJ was a ton of fun to talk to. Let’s see what he had to say.
[intro music fades out]Travis: Welcome, RJ! It’s a privilege to have you at the Fantasy Inn.
RJ: Hello Travis, I’m very glad to be here and to meet you. And I’m waving at you. Even though you can’t actually see that, I am.
Travis: Well hello to you, too. So I guess the first question I want to ask, can you talk a little bit about what inspired The Bone Ships? How did the story originate?
[swoosh]Travis: Just a quick note, there are a few issues with RJ’s audio at first. Don’t worry, this doesn’t last long. Everything should be fine in a few minutes.
[swoosh]RJ: I’m never entirely sure where things come from, with ideas. People say, “Oh, where did the idea come from?” is a bad question, and I think that’s wrong. It’s a really good question. The reason you’ll hear us complain about it is because it’s also a really hard question. Because it’s a really big question. Everything influences you, what’s going on around you.
The first conscious thought I had about it is I knew I need to write about ships. Because there aren’t that many fantasy writers doing it, and that attracts me, first of all, when you see not a lot of people are doing that thing. There’s Temeraire by Naomi Novik, and Rob Hayes, a self-published author, he’s written some ship-based things. Oh… gone, mind’s gone. Anyway there was that going on in the back of my head. And I like ships and I love the sea and I wanted to write about the sea because I think there’s a rhythm and a feel to the sea. You can grab onto it.
But the first conscious idea in it was how would you build these massive sailing ships if you lived in a world without wood? And that’s kind of the genesis of it. Because you have an idea, and like a lot of writers, they write their ideas down in a book. Which I never do, because I think that’s giving myself permission to forget them. Because I know I’ll never look in that book again, and I lose everything, and I’m really slack. So I let ideas stay in the back of my head and if I forget them, they’re probably not really that good. And if it stays there, it’s probably worth pursuing.
So I had this idea about how would you build ships in a world without wood. And that sort of sends you off in two directions. This is so boring, it sounds really logical when I explain it and there’s none of that… it’s all hindsight. The first is why isn’t there wood? Which is how we get kind of the ecology of the Hundred Isles. There are these jungles which grow up really fast and then die back. So they’re more like big ferns or succulents. They don’t have trunks, they don’t have wood that’s usable in the same way.
And the second one was what can we use instead? Which was really… “Oh yeah, we need something.” And I did think about stone for a bit, but I thought no one would go for that. Although technically possible, you could build ships out of steel. It’s all about how much weight and the mass of it. But I didn’t want to do anything that was too hard.
And then I was thinking about sort of Neolithic cultures. And they often used horn and bone as tools. And if you go back to the 17th century sailors there’s scrimshaw, which is carving onto bones little patterns and pictures, and that was very popular. So bone is nautically linked and a possible idea. But from the idea of using bone, you get the idea… it has to massive. The bones have to be huge. Huge bones! So I need something huge. And I kind of thought about whales, first of all. And it’s like no, I want an entirely new world. I don’t want stuff we recognize in it.
So that leads on to dragons quite naturally in a fantasy setting. And I know my editor likes dragons, so I thought she’ll like that. [laughs] Are they dragons, really? They’re kind of possibly nearer to Kaiju, really, I think. So I had that sort of setup. And I had the idea of a matriarchy. It interested me in writing quite a long time. I thought it would be an interesting thing to do. So I sort of put all that together into one thing. And then Age of Assassins had come out and Blood of Assassins had just about come out and my agent was saying “I think we should talk to Orbit about what you want to do next.” And I gave him a couple of pages of ideas about what I was happy to do and said to pick one.
Because I’m a complete tart when it comes to writing. I’ll write anything, I don’t care, I love the act of writing. It’s not really about what I’m writing, it’s about the act of doing it. Once I’m doing it, I mean it. And he chose this for me. He said “I think that one sounds really good.” And I went to Jenny, my editor, and she really liked it. The only thing she said was I couldn’t have cannon, because originally there was cannon in it. And I kind of sulked about that for a bit. But then I realized she was absolutely right, because it made it too close to our world.
Travis: Well there’s also something really cool about essentially giant crossbows.
RJ: Yeah, yeah. You felt wants to come up with that idea that Yeah, yeah. Jenny was right. And I have learned that really about my editor general issues, right. And so I just take her advice there is and there’s a whole see it scene in the bunch of just about how they make the crossbows work. And I love that scene. And I imagine that maybe some people will be a bit bored, but it is just really curious to me. They’re just they’re being taught how to do it properly. And it’s a proper naval book scene. You can’t write a book about about their views without having a scene where they’re taught how to work, the guns or the buzz. In this case, and, and they they kind of feel they feel powerful and you’re writing about them in the book. I like the good.
Travis: Yeah. And so you’ve talked about kind of how you’re building this new world with bone ships. And so taking a step back briefly, I know in the Wounded Kingdom books, they’re more grounded in medieval England. It’s a setting that most readers are probably more familiar with. But you’ve also worked some extra things in there behind the scenes. Like I believe you’ve mentioned, there’s some Arthurian lore in the Wounded Kingdom, but I don’t think you’ve ever actually shared with that war was. Any chance you could share now?
RJ: Yeah, it’s it’s pretty simple. The Arthurian stuff that’s going on it but it is there. And it’s really difficult to do it without massive spoilers for people that haven’t read it.
Travis: Okay, well, we can skip past that if that’s too spoilery.
RJ: I’m just having a think if there’s anything… There are certain parts of the Arthurian myth, like a sword that makes someone a king, that’s in there. And the Fisher King, that’s in there. I’m not going to say much about that because people who know what the Fisher King is will recognize it when they find it, and people that don’t can Google it [laughs] and that’ll help them find it. So that’s in there.
And there’s a kind of hidden Arthurian Easter Egg that no one’s found yet, but I imagine someone’s going to at some point. Some people know it because I’ve told them and they’re just like, “oh, how did I not see that?” But, yeah, you could kind of see the king figure and as Arthur and Merlin, if you want to. I mean obviously in the myths, Merlin is much older and that’s not the case in these books. But that was part of my thinking.
And when I write books I have a friend called Matt. Hello Matt, he’ll probably listen to this [laughs] And I meet with him and I talk at him like I’m talking or readers now. And he’s very good. And he lets me bounce stuff off him. But he’s done a lot of Arthurian scholarship, it’s his thing. So a lot of things he’d come back and say “or you could do this.” So there’s a lot of parallels that have come from him and they just kind of hidden within it that people can find. It is not a retelling of the Arthur story, but there are definite nods to it within the Wounded Kingdom. Because I love the King Arthur story. That was my first sort of fantastical story that I loved, was when I was young and found the King Arthur story and thought “I really like this.” And it works in many different ways.
Travis: Yeah. And so is there any sort of similar mythology or Easter eggs that you’ve worked into The Bone Ships?
RJ: I don’t think there is. It was more a conscious idea of stepping away from our world. There’s a tripartite goddess which I was thinking about. The Morrigan, which is a Celtic goddess, possibly. Is it Celtic? It’s also a bit hazy. But the maid and mother and hag are sort of folklore figures, which interests me. That’s in there. And that’s their central goddesses, which makes sense with it being a matriarchy, that they would have these female goddesses.
And it is intrinsic to the plot in the entire story in the way it’s told and where it goes. But I think I think that’s it really. I mean… yeah. Yeah, I think I consciously the as I ever am, I think I tried to keep away from stuff that I was familiar with. But no doubt as soon as we stop talking, I will think “oh yeah, but I did that, that thing.” So no, not in this one, but there was in the other one. This is a lot more its own little thing, its own little mythology and world.
Travis: Right. And i know I definitely recognized the maid, mother, and hag as something that I’d seen before, kind of spun in its new twist. And that always excites me because I don’t normally pick up on things like that in books so that was something at least slightly familiar I could latch onto in this brand new unfamiliar world you created.
RJ: Yeah, I mean there’s not much hand holding in the Bone Ships. It throws you in and I think it does ask the reader to kind of stick it out for a little bit. Because the the books I’ve loved the most are ones that required me to stick it out a bit. And then there’s this like [snaps] moment where you think, “Oh, I get it. I understand it, I get all this.” And suddenly you’re a part of this unfamiliar world and that’s a really wonderful feeling for me as a reader. And I kind of hoped I could give that to the readers of the Bone Ships. And touch wood, but it seems to be working.
Travis: Yeah, well it definitely worked for me. And I’ll say in preparing for this interview, I actually ended up reading all four of your books back to back.
RJ: [laughs] Thank you.
Travis: And emotional trauma aside…
RJ: [laughs harder]
Travis: I noticed a few clear themes that kind of were in all of your books. So the first one I want to touch on is family. In The Wounded Kingdom you have the key centering relationship between Merela, who’s this older assassin, mentor, and mother figure to Girton, the main character. And then in The Bone Ships, you have a similar relationship between the legendary shipwife Meas, and a rather–at least at first–helpless Joron. So… why the focus on family and found family for these books?
RJ: In The Wounded Kingdom, I’d recently become a parent. So that was it in my mind when I was writing, it was sort of a parent and child relationship, and me and my little boy. I didn’t want to do a male mentor figure because that’s what people generally do. And I thought, well, you can easily twist this just by making it making her female and I wanted to a female character in it, and that played a big part. And I think also she’s like a lion. She’s like an avatar of motherhood in that no matter how much she messes up, she is there for him and she will protect him. And I found that really interesting.
And I’m not sure if, I mean it probably is family but in my head a lot of what I write about is friendship, as well. Like Girton does make this little family around him with the people he meets. I’m trying not to mention one of the people he meets because if you haven’t read it, it kind of spoils the second book. But he does create this little family around him. But I always think of it as friendship. And then you do get a very similar male/female relationship in The Bone Ships.
And someone asked in a kind of slightly leery way… Is that what you’re into then? Strong women?
Travis: [laughs]
RJ: No, no, no, it really isn’t! It’s kind of a very naval book adventure thing to have somebody come aboard who doesn’t understand the way things work, and have a good captain teach them how things work. That’s quite a trope–even though I hate that word–of naval fiction. And in a lot of fiction you have the person learning and the personally knows it, because that allows you as a writer to show the reader how this world works as well. So it’s useful.
And because it was a matriarchy in this world, it made sense that she would be female because you’re more likely to get ahead in that society if you are female. Although the black ships, which Joron’s on, have a slightly larger amount of men on them. Because while you’re more likely to get ahead if you’re female, you’re more likely to be condemned if you’re male because life isn’t as fair for you. And so it kind of fit the logic of the world.
The mentor/student relationship is clearly one that I like, but the whole male/female thing is kind of more incidental than a deliberate thing. It’s just the logic of the world dictated that. And I could have made her male and him female. But again, it kind of takes the logic of a of a matriarchy, and then makes it pointless for the story if you wrote a woman in a subservient position to a man in that way. Does that make sense?
Travis: Yeah, it makes sense. It’s much more thematically consistent with what you were going for. And it’s kind of interesting that you can have, between your series, two key female characters in a strong position like that and have someone think that it’s just way too much or out of the ordinary.
RJ: Yeah, I mean, I don’t think people who’ve been in touch with me would have thought that. They’ve just kind of thought, “Do you have a bit of an obsession RJ?” [laughs]
Travis: [laughs]
RJ: I don’t really, it just seems to work. And I’m kind of already playing with what I want to do next and that won’t have that and it’ll be something different. Because I’ve done it twice now. So I think it’s time to step out.
And the other reason I think you get this female and male relationship in my books is, there’s a writer called CJ Cherryh, who’s magnificent. And she wrote a book called The Chronicles of Morgaine, which are about a barbarian character called Vanya, and he’s male, and this witch (to his way of thinking) called Morgaine who turns up in his society. And she uses him to help her complete this mission she has, but she’s not a witch. She’s from a much more sophisticated society and she’s traveling worlds doing her thing.
And that book blew my mind when I read it because it presents this fantasy and then just does something completely different with it. And that relationship is very similar in that Vanya, though he’s a barbarian and very capable in his society, she’s something different and above him. I think that book–I must’ve read it when I was maybe 16 or 17–whenever I read it had a massive effect on me. And I think in some degree I’m recreating that in books that I write in a kind of homage. So I get said to people like you “Go and read The Chronicles of Morgaine, it’s amazing.” I remember it as amazing. And CJ Cherryh’s stuff is often very good, she’s worth checking out. She’s a really good writer.
Travis: I’ve been meaning to read her for a while. I mostly hear about her Foreigner series, but this sounds fascinating, as well.
RJ: It is, it’s brilliant. It’s The Chronicles of Morgaine. Again, it’s a book that asks you to invest in. It’s not immediately easy to read, but if you carry on with it what you get back is just astounding. You’re probably going to say, “Whoah! I didn’t expect any of this. This is massive.” So yeah, definitely worth reading.
Travis: Yeah, that sounds great. And for me, at least, the steeper the learning curve, the deeper the immersion once I finally get past that.
RJ: Yeah, that’s I’ve found with books. I really, really like that. Books that make me work a bit are worth the work, I think.
Travis: Right so another theme that I’ve noticed in both of your series so far is disability. So in the Wounded Kingdom, Girton has his clubfoot. And in The Bone Ships, physical defects seem to be pretty common in the population. It’s kind of baked into their society, and it’s almost treated as normal. Which I think is the first time that I’ve seen that in a fantasy series before.
RJ: Yeah, yes. I have interest in disability because I’m quite poorly myself. I’ve have Crohn’s disease, and I was very, very poorly with that quite a long time ago now. And now I’m on lots of drugs, and they’re really good drugs. So nobody needs to feel sorry for me, because it’s brilliant. Every account has a silver lining. But as part of Crohn’s disease, it attacks your joints. And there have been periods of my life when I’ve not really been able to walk because it’s just been too painful. And Girton came out of that.
A lot of the things that Girton does, especially the techniques where he’s breathing before he fights to get control of himself and overcome his fear, that’s kind of pain management techniques that I learned to get over stuff. So it was big in my mind when I was writing it and that’s where we got that. And also, when you go through something like that, you gain more of an awareness. You kind of go from knowing disabled people to appreciating more how hard it can be.
And there was a definite idea with the Wounded Kingdom that I wanted to present a truth of disability, which is that you just get on with your life, and the things that are hard become normal for you. But there are still things that are hard. And maybe sometimes you need a bit help. And so there was that. And then with The Bone Ships, I wanted to do a slightly different thing. I wanted to kind of look at the way people treat disability. So you have this very obvious two-tier society where if you’re wrong–to their way of thinking–you’re a lower-class person. And if you’re right, if your body is whole and perfect… And important in that society is if your mother survives giving birth, you become a higher-class person. And it kind of felt like an easy way of getting people to sort of look at the way you look at somebody who’s a bit different to you, and do you do you treat them differently? So that was the reason, and it’s always something in my head.
Joron himself is born whole but his mother died giving birth, which makes him less of a person in the eyes of everybody else. And part of the story of The Bone Ships is about somebody being forced to look at their society and see that what they consider normal maybe is not fair or right in any way. And there is a reason why there is so much disability in that society, but I’m not going to tell you or anybody [laughs].
Travis: [laughs] No spoilers, please. Yeah.
RJ: You might not even find out in the books. I think by the time you get to the third one, there’s something that would give you a good idea of what’s going on. And I think somebody has read the first one, and in a review I read I think they have quite a good idea… They were very careful about what said. So it’ll be interesting how many people are picking up on the stuff that’s going on in the background. But I was shocked somebody picked it up in the first book. I didn’t think there was enough enough for them to understand it.
Travis: Well, that means you’re doing your job right. You’re laying the groundwork for them.
RJ: Yeah, yeah. And then later on, we’ll find out more. It’s a ridiculous idea I had earlier on and I’ve carried it through. There’s probably only about three people that know what it is. So let’s not talk about that anymore because I talk too much. And I’m liable to say, “Well, let’s just share the secret with you and all the hundreds of people that listen to your podcast.”
Travis: Well, if you ever do accidentally share too much, just let me know and I’ll edit it out.
RJ: Very good. I’ve got a little notepad. So when I’m thinking of things I shouldn’t say, I’m writing them down and putting a line through them. So I’m mentally just going, “No, RJ, don’t do that. Don’t do it.”
Travis: Well, another thing you touch on in both of your series is kind of a metaphor for how your world works and then our environment. I know in the Wounded Kingdom, magic literally destroys the land around people. When someone uses magic, they’re draining the life from the land, and that to me kind of felt like maybe a metaphor for oil or harvesting natural resources from the earth.
RJ: Yeah, it’s absolutely a metaphor for oil. And I saw a… There’s a place, if you google the North Yorkshire Moors there’s a place called the Hole of Horcum, which is one of the places in my head that gave birth to the Wounded Kingdom. I was traveling over the North Yorkshire Moors–maybe it was another moor, we have quite a few moors in England. And they’re quite similar. They’re like big flat places with not much going on but heather.
And I saw a strip mine. It was just this big scar on the earth and it stuck in my head. And it was all sand underneath the moor, which is why the Sourings are yellow in the Wounded Kingdom. And also the magic when he uses it is black. So it was kind of this thought of oil and stealing power from the earth. It was in there but I didn’t want to sort of hammer it into people. I thought people will pick that up or they won’t. I don’t think you need to know that to enjoy the story, but it is in my head. And then when we get to The Bone Ships again, they have ruined their society through greed. I’m not a big fan of greedy people, they tend to get hit in my books. But yeah, they had a resource that was amazing. And they have mismanaged it so much that there’s none of it left anymore. And that’s one of the setup points for the book.
Travis: Right, and another thing. So I’m just kind of wondering, moving on from the environment topic. You said before that if there was one main goal for The Wounded Kingdom, it’s about forgiveness and doing the right thing, even though it may cost you personally. Be good to people, because that’s its own reward. Is there a similar kind of main goal, or boiling down the essence of The Bone Ships that you can think of?
RJ: Yeah, I think forgiveness and doing the right thing, it is a constant thing to me. Because I think it’s important. I talk about the idea of the hero. And I kind of get sort of pushed into grimdark and I don’t think–although what I write is quite dark and quite gritty–I don’t… I think one of the signifiers of grimdark is to have a central character who is maybe not heroic, who is very gray, more about getting through it themselves.
And getting through the situation where the heroic figure–I’m doing the air quotes, but you can’t see that because I’m in England–for me, the signifier of the heroic figure is when when it comes to a choice point and you can either take the easier option,which which will keep you safe, or you can take the harder option, which may not keep you safe, but will help a lot more people. Someone who is heroic will take the harder option. And that is what Girton does in The Wounded Kingdom. Not always willingly, and not always for the right reasons. And he makes a lot of mistakes.
Sometimes he thinks he’s doing that and he’s not, he’s doing entirely the wrong thing because he doesn’t think through his… I always think of him as a really bad detective, and I love him, he’s one of my favorite characters. But he’s really bad at what he does. He just blunders about and hopes everything goes okay. But he will always choose the right thing, even though that can lead to great personal pain.
And then in The Bone Ships, we have the same thing. I mean, it’s a ship of criminals. And they are given a second chance through this woman that comes along, and she has a very definite mission of her own that she wants to accomplish, that she thinks is worthwhile and good. And can she get them to go along with it? Will it work? And that’s kind of a central thing of it. These people who are judged unworthy.
There’s a character who murdered his wife and I kind of worried about that, because… But that’s the worst thing that can possibly happen in this society because women are powerful. And he’s quite important, I have plans for him, for what to do and how that will play out. And I generally think that to forgive is is an important lesson.
And I mean, in a book, you do an exaggerated version. Like, there is a character in The Wounded Kingdom who, if you read it you’ll know who I’m talking about, who turns everything around. But so the reality of it is he has done some absolutely terrible things and maybe actually he should have been in prison. But in a book you exaggerate reality and you can do that. You can put forward a message in a more stark way, if that makes sense. I’m not saying we should let people murder people and just go, “Well that was naughty, but I’m forgiving you” because that’s not the case.
Travis: [laughs]
RJ: But I would say the overall message is one of don’t hold on to hatred and try and get over it. Yeah. There we go.
Travis: Yeah I think that’s a powerful message, like you said, that’s present in both of your series so far.
RJ: I like people. I like people, and my experience of people is that generally if you give people the chance they will do the right thing. Not everbody will. You’re always going to meet people who won’t. But if you judge everybody by them, then you’re letting them dictate who you are. And I’m not prepared to do that. I’m going to presume everyone’s nice until they prove me wrong. Some people really have. But that’s life, you just get on with it.
Travis: Well, taking a step back I guess from digging into the meat of the actual content of your stories, talking about the writing side of things… So I know you’re a bit infamous–or legendary, however you want to consider it–for writing at least Age of Assassins in around six weeks, and you’ve never really seemed to have a huge issue with writer’s block. Is that still true with The Bone Ships?
RJ: Yes. I’m not writing this quickly. The thing with Age of Assassins is, it sounds brilliant, but I must stress there was a course of steroids involved. So I did have a lot more energy than I usually have. I’d just come out of not… The only time I ever seem to get stuck is when things go on submission, which if you’re not familiar with the process, your book goes to your agent and your agent reads it and says right it’s good enough. Then it goes to the publishers, and they read it and decide if they want to buy it, and that process can take months. And generally during that process, I can’t do anything. I can’t write anything new because I don’t really… My mind just goes aaaah!
So I’d just come out of that with a big science fiction book. But it didn’t sell. And my agent at the time was gutted by it. And I was just like, “no I can write again now.” And I got a course of steroids and I had this idea and I went BANG! and I did it. And what you read is quite similar to what I wrote. There are some big changes in it, like the book ended when you found out who the assassin hirer (because it’s not a murderer in that book) was. The book actually goes on a bit longer now. And there is kind of a story running through it of some people Girton doesn’t get on with that can be rounded up at the end. And that wasn’t in the original version. It was a much purer murder mystery, the first version of it. And then, because I’d written it so quickly, Orbit said we’d like to release a book every six months. Do you think you can write the next ones in three months each? And I foolishly said yes.
Travis: [laughs]
RJ: And I did. Because Girton’s voice is a very easy voice for me to write. So I wrote those quite quickly. And that was okay. But when we came to The Bone Ships, it’s a more complicated voice narratively. It’s a more–and I’m really wary of using this phrase, but my editor uses it–literate voice. I’m not sure I agree with that. But I just think it’s the voice the book needed. But it’s harder to write.
So when I was writing Age of Assassins I wrote Monday to Friday and I’d usually write about 2000 words a day. And when I’ve been writing The Bone Ships, it tends to be about 1000 words a day. Which sounds like a lot, but they’re rubbish. I have to make them good. And I don’t have anything else to do. That’s quite an important thing to stress. I write full time. And there are a lot of writers that write a lot more than I do.
I’m just quite lucky that–touch wood–up till now what I write tends to be quite accurate to the final version. But I’m waiting for edits on the second Bone Ships book, I keep saying that and I’m just waiting for it to come and bite me. I’m sure Jenny is going to come back and go “right we have to change all of this, RJ.”
The first Bone Ships, I think, took six months to write. The second one took 11 months to write, it was much harder for me, partly because in the middle, I kind of had the realization that I’d walked away from something people really liked and done something completely different. And I just thought “Oh my god, what have I done?” I had kind of a crisis of confidence. And that’s kind of a very normal thing for a writer. It’s just part of the job. So that slowed me down a bit.
And then I’m on with the third one now, I’m about 40,000 words into it and I seem to be doing about 1000 words a day. But… writer’s block is a… Everything to do with writing is very personal to to the writer. Be very wary of anyone that tells you they know how you should write, because they don’t. Only you know how you should write.
But writer’s block for me is never so much about not having something to say. It’s about worrying how to do it. Or worrying that you won’t be good enough, or worrying that what you write won’t interest people. I get over this by giving myself permission to be rubbish. I just tell myself that whatever I write, that it’s going to be rubbish, it’s going to be absolutely terrible. And that’s okay. Because I can fix it later on. It’s much easier to fix stuff that you’ve got on the page than it is to write perfect from scratch.
And I think if I was trying to write like, beautiful sentences that were perfect as I sat there, I’d get nothing done. But because I’m just like, put any old nonsense down, RJ. As long as it’s down. It’s not really that difficult. And then the whole writing is quite a joyous process for me. The hardest bit is getting myself to sit down start. Even if you love a thing, there’s still a thing in your head going, “yeah but you could do these other things.” Like I’ve just bought Spider Man for the PlayStation 4 which is a really bad idea.
Travis: [laughs]
RJ: Because that’s there now. And I could write Bone Ships 3 but but maybe I need to finish that level in Spider Man first? I hope my editor doesn’t listen to this. But yeah, that’s how I get past writer’s block. I just presume what I do is going to be very bad. And then there’s no pressure on me. Because if it’s not very bad, I’ve won. And if it is very bad, I’m just doing what I expected anyway, so no loss either way.
I’m quite an easygoing person. I’m not uptight. I think something about writer’s block can be about winding your own expectations of yourself up so tight that you can’t move. And you need to move away from that. But not for everybody! I stress, because it’s different for everybody. Or somebody I know will shout at me” You got wrong!” It’s right for me.
Travis: Well, yeah. And I think you hit on something there where any type of writing advice is not going to work for everyone. Everyone needs to do their own thing. But I think a lot of maybe the insecurities or worries and stresses that writers have might be at least similar. So I think it’s interesting that you touch on that.
RJ: And if there are people listening that are starting out on their writing, that feeling that you have when you’re reading your writing back and thinking, “I don’t know if this is good or not, I don’t know if I’m ever going to be good enough.” That is just normal.
I’m on my sixth, hopefully going to be published book. And I’m still reading it back thinking… but is it actually terrible? And I don’t actually know what I’m doing, if I’m honest. I’m always kind of in awe when you see these people who… Like my friend, Anna Stephens, who wrote the Godblind trilogy, she does it. Melissa Caruso, who wrote The Tethered Mage, she does it. Where they have like spreadsheets, and they have post-it notes, and they have their character arcs planned out, and they know what they have to overcome from the start. And I look at that and I think “oh my god that’s amazing!” Because I just couldn’t.
If you told me, “how do you plan this character’s character arc?” I’ll just look at you blankly. Just kind of… I write it? I hope it’s okay. So yeah, there are vast amounts of difference. And do what works for you and that is the only way of doing it, really.
Travis: Right. And I’ve also seen you’ve mentioned before that after spending so much time writing and struggling with the editing process, it’s difficult sometimes for you to read fantasy now. And I’m wondering because this was probably most apparent to me in The Wounded Kingdom series where it felt like I was reading mystery novels with kind of a flavor of fantasy. And maybe Bone Ships is similar where it’s a naval novel with the flavor of fantasy.
RJ: Yeah, I think writing fantasy has stolen fantasy from me to some degree.
Travis: That’s so sad.
RJ: It is and it isn’t. I do think to a degree that genre is just the clothes stories wear rather than being its own specific thing. It’s much more useful as a marketing tool than it is for anything else. And you get elements of fantasy in other books. There’s a crime writer I love called James Lee Burke, who writes very serious, very literary crime. And then it’s beautiful, but also has a supernatural element in it, which is quite fantastical.
But when I read actual fantasy, the bit of my head that’s going “What would I do with this idea?” just won’t turn off. And it’s not criticism. I’m not judging it in any way. I’m just completely unable to relax the plotting bit of my mind… Because of the way I write, I write on the fly, I’ll finish the sentence then there all the possibilities of that sentence for me as I write. As I read, my mind’s just doing the same things, I can never relax or enjoy things. And so I read other genres, I read a lot of nonfiction. And I read a lot of crime and I read science fiction and “literature.”
But yeah, fantasy’s really difficult. And it’s not just me, I’ve spoken to quite a few fantasy writers who have this thing where reading the genre that you write gets difficult. I’m not naming names because maybe they’re not as stupid as I am that they say it to people. [laughs]
Travis: [laughs]
RJ: But yeah, it is. It’s a weird thing that something I really enjoyed has been stolen from me. But such is life. And maybe that helps give me my voice, that I’m not kind of… Maybe there’s part of my head that’s worried that if I start reading current fantasy I’ll think “oh, well, this seems to be what’s popular.”
Mercenaries seem to be a big thing for the moment. I wonder if I started reading mercenary books would I slowly think “oh I want to write a mercenary book!” And a bit of me doesn’t want to be something that I’m not. No, I’m not joining your club. I’m a nightmare. [laughs] It’s probably also telling me “No, no, no, no, don’t read these.”
There’s all these little sort of quirks in the back of my head that conspired to send me at the moment towards… Actually historical fiction is a real love of mine. And I think The Wounded Kingdom isn’t actually that far from historical fiction. But because it’s fantasy you don’t have to do as much research as well, which is good because I’m very lazy.
Travis: I’ve seen you say before that you really enjoy making appearances at conventions and cons. Do you have any particularly funny or entertaining convention stories you could share?
RJ: Oh, I wish I did. I tend to forget things as soon as they’ve happened.
Travis: [laughs] Same here.
RJ: The funniest thing that’s happened to me is in my debut year, I think I got on–this isn’t actually convention related, it’s just writing related–I got on three best female debut lists. I had to contact the people and say I shouldn’t be on that list. Bless them, they were lovely. There we going “No, no, it’s a really good book!” I said, “Yeah, that’s not why I shouldn’t be on that list.” Because people see the long hair. And I will stress that if you are a person who always thought I’m a girl, I’m not insulted by that. It’s has happened all my life. And when I was younger and much more outrageous, I used to use it to get free drinks in bars.
Travis: [laughs]
RJ: [laughs] But yeah, there’s that. Mostly conventions for me are just kind of fun because you get to meet up with… you become friends with all these other writers. When I say I don’t read fantasy books, what I do tend to do is I’ll flick into the books of people that I know and read a bit of them just so I have an idea of of their voice. Because I kind of came up in a year with with Nicholas Eames and Anna Stephens and Anna Smith Sparks and Ed McDonald. Who are the other writers that came up in that year? Oh, mind has gone blank. I’ve missed someone out I that I really.
I read bits of their books and I was amazed by their voices and the way they write, and I know it is good. I just know that I can’t… my head won’t let me read them. I’ve gone completely off the point, haven’t I? But yeah. Yes. Convention stories.
I don’t know, most of my convention stories involve me getting lost, to be honest with you. And my press officer, Nazia, shouting at me. That’s basically all my conventions, is her telling me I’m in the wrong place and pointing “Go over there, RJ!.” And then making me buy her sweets, because she’s really mean. But that’s what she does to all her authors. No one at Orbit misbehaves, we’re too scared of Nazia. And yeah, mostly involves me just getting lost on the way of getting on the wrong train or turning up in the wrong town. All these things have happened. More than once.
Travis: I think you’ve said before, your press officer Nazia, she’s put you on a couple panels because she thought it would be funny?
RJ: Yeah she has. You can probably pick up that I’m not the most organized person in the world. I’m kind of a force of chaos. Small chaos, not a massive chaos. But I tend to just ramble off and go wherever I want. So Nazia thought it’d be really funny to make me the moderator of the panel. I just said, “What are you thinking, Nazia?” And she was like, “No, it’ll be funny!”
And it was funny. We had a brilliant time. I think, was it Comic Con? It might’ve been one of the big Comic Cons. And Ben Aaronovitch was on the panel, and some other people who are now going to be cross with me because their names have gone out of my head. I only remember Ben because I was sat next to him. I think they turned up thinking the panel would be about what it said it was about. And it just wasn’t. It ended up being about nothing. But there was a lot of laughter [laughs]. And I think in its own way, it succeeded, while actually never broaching the subject we were meant to talk about. Which is a win in my book.
Travis: I mean, in the few conventions I’ve been to, those are my favorite panels. I think you did something right.
RJ: Yeah. I’ll tell you that my favorite panel that I’ve ever done so far, was at the World Fantasy Convention. I did the talking animals panel. And that was wonderful. There was a really good mixture of people on it, but some were some were serious, some knew their subject, some very clever… and then there was me to talk nonsense. And it just had a really lovely feel to it. And so if you ever want somebody to talk to about talking animals, I’m here for that. That is my thing. Because that is another thing in my books that you’ll find. Although the animal in The Wounded Kingdom doesn’t talk, but he kind of does… in a silent way. [laughs]
Travis: So you mentioned that, in part of the group of writers, I guess, that were published around the same time as you, Nicholas Eames. And you’ve said before that he’s one of the few writers that you’d allow to write in one of your worlds because you just like his humor. So I’m curious, as just kind of a thought exercise, what do you think would happen if the two of you were given the chance to write in each other’s worlds? Or given the chance to write each other’s next book? How would that go down?
RJ: I think there would be a lot of very disappointed Nicholas Eames readers. [laughs] The reason I choose Nick to write in my world is he is so different to what I do, and that’s what would interest me. To see what some somebody who writes from a completely different way would do in that world.
But I mean if I wrote in his world, you definitely wouldn’t get all the things that Nicholas Eames readers love, because that wouldn’t be my thing. You might get some 80s metal, though. Because I could do 80s metal. All the other stuff… there’s a lot of D&D references in Nick’s stuff. Which I don’t know about Dungeons and Dragons because I was playing in bands when I probably should have been playing Dungeons and Dragons. But I didn’t know that at the time. So that’d be out the window for start. And it would be quite gloomy in Bloody Rose. She probably wouldn’t make it out of the first chapter.
Travis: [laughs]
RJ: None of them would, I think. The first thing you do is you think, “right. Let’s have a clean slate. Let’s kill all Nick’s characters.” He’d love that, I’m sure. He’d be like, “Yes, thanks for that, RJ.” But the thing is you never know what you would do with the thing until you’re doing it. If that makes sense?
Travis: Right Yeah, no that makes sense.
RJ: I would love to read a Nick Eames’ version of Girton. I think it would make me so cross. It’s like “You can’t do that, Eames! What are you doing? He’s not being humorous, he’s sulking. Stop it, Eames!”
Travis: [laughs]
RJ: Yeah. I think the joy of somebody else doing something with your stuff comes from them breaking it. And that’s why I would like how absolutely appalled I would be to my beautiful, beautiful inventions.
Travis: Speaking of your beautiful inventions, you mentioned before that you had a sci fi novel that didn’t quite sell and if I’m correct, is that A Darkness Against the Stars?
RJ: Yes. Yeah, it is. It’s called A Darkness Against the Stars, and hopefully at some point in the future… Because we’d gathered that… I might be wrong, because when your agent says things don’t sell, to some degree I think they kind of cushion the blow a bit. But [laughs] one of the reasons it didn’t sell was they kind of thought it was probably too big and weird and complex for a new voice. And probably some work needed to be done on it, but I could probably do that work now.
And my agent, Ed Wilson, who is a wonderful funny man with terrible taste in trousers, thinks that possibly someone might pick it up now. So we might, we might come back with that book. And see if anyone wants to put it out, because I love it. I think it’s a really interesting book and it has sort of similar themes of forgiveness. And it’s written from the point of view of a pacifist. So it’s a pacifist, military space opera, if that makes any sense.
Travis: Yeah. I mean, you’ve got me interested.
RJ: Yeah, there is a lot of violence in it still, but the main character’s trying not to be involved in it. I like that book. I’ve not read it for about three years. So I’m saying I like it. I like my idea of it. I might go back to it and think actually no, I hate this book now. But I don’t think so. And there is kind of a mystery element to it as well. So hopefully at some point we will see that come out. I would like it to. I think there’s worthy stuff in it. It’s not a trunk novel. You know that phrase where writers have trunk novels which they write and finish and think “Well actually I’ve made a right mess of that. That’s just a learning experience.” And this it not that. I think it’s a decent book, I think it just wasn’t its time. So, fingers crossed.
Travis: Yeah. And I guess, even if you don’t go back to that book… Have you thought about writing in a sci fi world? I know you like bouncing around and switching it up to do something new.
RJ: I would love to write some science fiction. Because I really, really like it. And I think that some stunning… I don’t know if you’ve read Adrian Tchaikovsky’s Children of Ruin and Children of Time.
Travis: I haven’t yet, but I do own the books. So they’ve been staring at me from my bookshelf.
RJ: Oh, they’re astounding books. Children of Time won the Arthur C. Clarke award. And it is great. And then Children of Ruin, my wife sent me away when I was reading that. Because I just kept stopping and going, “Adrian is a genius. He’s an actual genius.” And after a bit, she went, “Okay, I’ve got the message. I know he’s a genius, go and read it in the bedroom.” But yeah, they’re brilliant books. I’m a bit scared. What if I get sci fi stolen from me as well? Because first I lose fantasy and then I lose sci fi and then what if I decide to write a crime book? And then I’m just going to be sat here with no books. Or I’ll be reading romance, which I’m not against! Because I’ve got all of the Georgette Heyer to get through. My wife swears they’re brilliant. So they’re on my list. But yeah, one day I’m gonna do a science fiction book. Shh. It’s a secret. It’s our secret.
Travis: There you go. No one else will hear it.
RJ: No one else will ever know. Yeah.
Travis: And I think… I know you’ve talked about this a little bit, but you brought it up again, about genres being stolen from you. So that’s something that’s interesting to me, because I feel like so much of writing is not about the genre. So do you ever worry that you might pick up a historical fiction or a crime novel or something totally different and be like, “Well, I’m familiar with this, this sounds a lot like a type of character arc or something that I would write?” Or is it just the clothes of the genre that really do that for you?
RJ: I think it’s the clothes of the genre, that put my head into writing mode. I think it’s recognizing the sort of fantastic world and my conscious brain looking at the cover and thinking, this is a sort of thing that you do. Even if I know it’s not going to be the sort of thing I do, it’s going to be vastly different to what I do. Because every author is different and unique and has their own thing. The brain is amazing, but also incredibly stupid in many ways.
There is the odd fantasy book that I have read, like Peter McLean’s Priest of Bones. I read that. And I think that worked for me because it feels very close to reading historical. There’s very little magic in it. It feels like historical fiction so I think my brain was, “Oh yeah, we’re okay with this. We’re not constantly second guessing it.” But the more fantastical things get, the the harder it gets me to relax into the book.
Travis: I get that. It flips that switch in your head.
RJ: Yeah, it’s entirely my stupid problem and not the authors and fantasy books who I know are all great and write amazing things. Sorry, sorry fellow authors. Feel free to slap me–actually don’t, because if Anna Stephens is listening, she might. And she’s quite hard.
Travis: [laughs]
RJ: So that hurts. Oh no, no, don’t. Just give me a nasty look. You can do that.
Travis: So, totally switching topics, but I was curious, as sort of one of our last questions… You’ve said before that you’re a fully qualified airline pilot. Is that true?
RJ: Have you ever heard the phrase that all authors are liars? [laughs]
Travis: [laughs] That’s why I was wondering. I was like, there’s probably a great story behind that. But it might not be true.
RJ: No, it’s entirely not true. I think some somebody asked me that, I just said it, thinking that they’d pick up it was a joke. But they believed me. So obviously, I’m more convincing than I think. I am a qualified electronics engineer, which often surprises people. In as much as that I qualified as an electronics engineer when I left school. But I went to college and I did that, but this is me.
You know, there are things that happen and they kind of really explain your personality. I could do all the exams for an electronics engineer and I could understand all the circuit boards, but I cannot get the back of a television. I’m just bemused by that. I’m just like, “What are all these screws for? I don’t understand it. It’s too confusing.” And I’m not allowed to put up shelves in our house. Because they never go up straight and it drives my wife mental. She’s the practical and she’s just like “I’m going to put the shelves up. You go and…” I could do measuring, I’m good at that. But actual practical stuff, I’m a nightmare. I’ts not the way my brain works at all. My brain’s quite sort of scattered.
Travis: Yeah, well, I I feel like I’m kind of right there with you. Which is worrying because I am actually an engineer, so I shouldn’t be like that.
RJ: Are you a theoretical engineer, or are you a hands-on engineer?
Travis: It’s more theoretical than hands-on. So that’s probably for the best.
RJ: Yeah, yeah, that is good. Beacuse I’m all… it’s all just bolts and they’re all different sizes. It just seems a lot of effort, it’s confusing.
Travis: Well, thank you so much, RJ. This has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for taking the time to have this chat with us.
RJ: I’ve loved it, Travis. Thank you ever so much for having me on. Maybe we can do it again at the end of The Bone Ships and then I can talk more about things that are hidden in that book that are going to come up later on.
Travis: Absolutely. You’re welcome back anytime, RJ.
RJ: Brilliant, have a really good week, Travis.
[outro music fades in]Travis: That’s it for this week. You can find RJ Barker on Twitter as at dead but dreaming. That’s dead without the A, but, and dreaming without any vowels. I’m sure there’s a story behind that. He’s on Facebook as that RJ Barker, and his website is rjbarker.com. If you thought RJ’s assassin series sounded intriguing, you can check out the first book in The Wounded Kingdom trilogy, Age of Assassins. The series is complete and a fantastic read.
And if you think giant ships made from dead dragons doesn’t sound interesting… Who hurt you?
Links to RJ’s books and social media are in the show notes. And there’s even a link to hear RJ brag about his extensive knowledge of ships in the blog post.
As always, you can find us over at thefantasyinn.com or on Twitter and Instagram at the fantasy inn. We have a ton of great episodes coming up for you. If you enjoyed this interview, we’d greatly appreciate it if you left your review. And don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss our future episodes.
That’s all for this week. See you next time.
[outro music fades out]